[Hamara-devel] chat about accessibility in GNOME (and from inference the rest of the desktops) in Free software.

[shirish]

Hi all,

I was looking in my chat logs of #debian-gnome when I came across the 
above.

The above exchange happened around 3-4 days or a little before. I 
haven't come across any NEWS entry which explains the change.

There is quite a bit of truth in what delYsid shares. Of all the desktop 
majors, Sun was the only one which put quite some money in development 
for accessibility and Orca got quite a bit of early funding from them 
(for the never happened/ill-fated Sun Desktop and then found home at GNOME.

You can find a bit of history at 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orca_%28assistive_technology%29 but not all.

I haven't been able to found a NEWS entry which states the above and 
hence have written to one of the GNOME Debian maintainers to find more 
about it.

The pity is GNOME is supposed to be the best or arguably the leader in 
desktop environments, if this is the state in GNOME, you could very well 
understand how it would be in other desktops where there is not much 
corporate backing nor do they have enough developers and have other issues.

-- 
Regards,
Shirish Agarwal,
Community Lead,
Hamaralinux.org
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[19:20:14] <delYsid> Anyone know how to convince gdm3.18 to *not* lock screen when I temporarily switch to a text console?
[19:35:09] <mfv> it's a security measure ;) anyway, no idea :P
[19:36:19] <sjoerd> delYsid: is turning off automatic screen lock not enough? (I assume not)
[19:40:35] <mfv> ah, fwiw, gnome-builder now starts even from the shell :) A reboot helped; probably a log in/out cycle could be enough.
[19:44:37] <delYsid> sjoerd: no it is not
[19:45:11] <delYsid> mfv: hahaha
[19:46:10] <delYsid> I am on the verge of really giving up on a GUI in Linux.  And I know, this all sounds like whining.  But I am watching accessibility since 10 years now, and it appears things are going downhill steadily...
[19:47:04] <bjsnider> delYsid: you mean you're just going to use a vt all the time?
[19:47:05] <delYsid> My workflow is: 10% X11, 90% console.  A forced screen lock upon switching away from X11 is really very very unhelpful.
[19:47:50] <delYsid> bjsnider: This is what I do.  I am blind.  No, I mean, I am going to give up on iceweasel, and use Mac OS X or Windows to access the web, because Linux is really not getting its act together.
[19:48:44] <delYsid> Anyway, I realize this is whining, and you probably dont get my pain anyway.  Sorry for venting here.
[19:50:33] <bjsnider> well, you might be just as disappointed with osx or winblows
[19:50:39] <delYsid> Since gdm 3.18, I only have sound during Login, after a login, speech synthesis dies, and no sounds can be played either.  No config change, straight upgrade from gdm 3.14 to 3.18.
[19:51:00] <delYsid> bjsnider: Did you try OS X or Windows with accessibility features?
[19:52:05] <delYsid> I am assuming no, because you wouldn't say such things otherwise.
[19:52:17] <delYsid> Linux is lagging behind roughly 10 years.
[19:52:47] <bjsnider> obvious follow-up question: why are you using linux if it's so disagreeable?
[19:52:56] <delYsid> No, actually 20.  Because Windows NT was already better then what GNOME gives me today.
[19:53:22] <-- ximion (~ximion at 2a02:8071:68f:ab00:d8f2:3e16:3082:454a) has quit (Quit: QUIT)
[19:54:39] <delYsid> bjsnider: I somehow managed to think that free software would be a long term solution to accessibility issues, so I really fell in love with it, roughly 20 years ago.  One thing followed another, and now Linux (admining, luckily) is my dayjob since 15 years.  I could be happy on the console purely, but modern web tech (intranet and stuff) makes it necessary that I use a browser from time to time, which forces me to deal with X11
[19:54:39] <delYsid> accessibility.
[19:56:52] <delYsid> bjsnider: So, to answer your question directly: Its my own fault.  I was thinking positively.
[19:57:12] <bjsnider> yes, you "somehow became convinced"
[20:01:05] <delYsid> These days, I realize, this stuff is not getting done without corporate backing.  And since Oracle trashed the Sun Accessibility Office, there are not many full-time hackers on these issues anymore.  The users can not really help themselves, because of the catch-22 (bootstrap issue).  So while the original idea looked wonderful, the reality has shown to me that Accessibility is not a priority for Free Software, and likely never will be.
[20:06:08] <delYsid> More on a technical note: The screen lock after console switch does also loose focus.  So sometimes, I can't just press enter, because keyboard focus is nowhere.
[20:06:23] <pochu> bjsnider: you're not being helpful
[20:06:44] <delYsid> And as a blind user, I dont *have* a mouse, nor can I use it.  So I am stuck there, only thing I can do is "systemctl restart gdm3"
[20:07:19] <pochu> delYsid: what do you mean with gdm is locking the screen when you switch to a tty? immediately or after a few minutes?
[20:07:34] <delYsid> pochu: Thank you so much for these 5 words.
[20:07:50] <pochu> delYsid: if I go to tty1 and back to tty7 (where X is), it doesn't lock the screen here
[20:08:02] <delYsid> pochu: Immediately when I switch back.  Since gdm 3.18
[20:08:15] <delYsid> for me, it does.
[20:08:23] <pochu> I have gdm3 3.18.0-2. that's something to investigate
[20:08:41] <pochu> as for no sound after logging in, that's another thing to investigate
[20:08:44] <delYsid> gah, I was hoping it would at least be consistent for others .
[20:09:02] <pochu> you're very right in that a11y is quite behind in Linux...
[20:09:18] <delYsid> pochu: Yes, I am trying.  However, I admit that my current frustration level is not very helpful in achieving useful results.
[20:09:37] <pochu> delYsid: I totally understand
[20:12:01] <pochu> delYsid: if I turn screen reader on from within my session, it works. I will try enabling it in gdm and logging in and seeing if that makes it work within the session
[20:12:13] <pochu> though I can't test that right now. hopefully tonight
[20:13:53] <delYsid> pochu: Thanks.  You seem to be understanding the problem.  Right now, I dont even know where to start looking.  And I gotta leave now.  May I ask you to ping me, if you ever learn anything new about this?
[20:15:19] <pochu> delYsid: sure, I will
[20:17:58] <bjsnider> there's a gdm channel on gimpnet with the developers in it, but they may not respond to pings
[20:49:01] <bjsnider> delYsid: i just chatted with halfline about this as he's currently working on gdm. he says if you switch using ctrl+alt+fn the screen won't lock, and it only locks if you use the switch user menu

And later it was learnt that delYsid was somewhat right in his observation.... anyway... some more. 

[21:02:36] <delYsid> I have another issue, which is probably also related to latest changes.  PulseAudio launches in GDM to allow Orca to speak, and later also launches as my user, but fails to output any sound as that user.  So I have two PulseAudio's running, only the GDM one being able to play sound.
[21:02:44] <mbiebl_> delYsid: a11y is important to us, but we simply have to few users testing it
[21:02:45] <delYsid> This is also new since gdm 3.18 upgrade.
[21:02:49] <mbiebl_> so rely on users like you
[21:02:51] <jcristau> mbiebl_: is something supposed to kill them?  or are they expected to linger?
[21:02:59] <mbiebl_> and we are thankful that you help with it
[21:03:24] <jcristau> i don't even remember how i start mpd...
[21:04:05] <delYsid> mbiebl_: Sorry for being frustrated.  I am happy to provide all test input that you might need.  I am just a big at a loss on debugging this stuff on my own, since, if screen reading breaks, screen reading breaks...
[21:04:31] <delYsid> s/big/bit/
[21:04:56] <bjsnider> halfline would be using fedora i'm sure. he's probably not wrong, so i guess he's describing what happens in fedora
[21:05:39] <delYsid> So to recapitulate, the screen lock issue is an anoyance, but the pulseaudio thing is a real show stopper.
[21:05:42] <mbiebl_> delYsid: is that a laptop?
[21:06:01] <mbiebl_> did you suspend resume in between?
[21:06:09] <delYsid> mbiebl_: no, it is a rather new HP desktop.
[21:06:18] <delYsid> Unfortunately with HDMI *and* PCH.
[21:06:22] <mbiebl_> hm, k
[21:06:53] <delYsid> But PA used to find the correct PCH output with gdm 3.14 a few days ago.  The latest dist-upgrade on stretch really made things a lot worse.
[21:07:27] <mbiebl_> jcristau: I'd have to check, but iirc we don't autokill everything on logout
[21:07:44] <mbiebl_> (obviously, otherwise you wouldn't have those processes)
[21:07:57] <mbiebl_> I'm just looking for the knob now
[21:08:07] <mbiebl_> where/how you can change that
[21:08:08] <delYsid> I dont even know, is PA *supposed* to continue running as Debian-gdm, or is it supposed to be killed by something once the user logged in?
[21:08:35] <mbiebl_> delYsid: in my case PA continues to run in the gdm session
[21:09:03] <delYsid> mbiebl_: And I guess you have sound with your user?
[21:09:14] <mbiebl_> yeah
[21:09:24] <delYsid> gah, good for you, bad for me :-)
[21:09:26] <mbiebl_> didn't have any PA related problems for a long time
[21:09:47] <mbiebl_> not sure if it's related to enabling a11y or not
[21:10:10] <mbiebl_> I'm on sid though, not sure if that makes a difference (probably not)
[21:10:33] <delYsid> Could someone with a recent stretch install try the following: Enable accessibility in GDM *and* for your user, and see if orca speaks during gdm and *after* login?
[21:10:39] <mbiebl_> do you have a PA process in your user session?
[21:11:17] <delYsid> mbiebl_: Yes.
[21:12:58] <mbiebl_> delYsid: Universal Access → Screen Reader ?
[21:13:20] <mbiebl_> hm, have to check that how to do in gdm
[21:13:58] <pochu> mbiebl_: yes, Screen reader
[21:14:14] <-- Piotras (~pp at 188.246.159.115.rev.vline.pl) has quit (Ping timeout: 480 seconds)
[21:14:15] <delYsid> mbiebl_: Yes, that should be it.
[21:15:15] <delYsid> Brings me to another issue, we really need a command-line tool that sets this up.  Something like "blind mlang", which would enable gdm to talk, and enable that users screen reader as well.
[21:15:48] <delYsid> Because, obviously, its a bit hard to enable accessibility without having accessibility enabled in the first place.
[21:16:31] <pochu> delYsid: there's supposed to be a shortcut. something with super and S, let me find which one it was
[21:17:00] <delYsid> pochu: I know, there is supposed to be a shortcut since 2010.  However, it keeps changing :-/
[21:17:14] <pochu> delYsid: alt+super+s. just tried it, it works
[21:17:24] <delYsid> good.
[21:17:44] <pochu> delYsid: last I tried (a long time ago admittedly) it worked on gdm too
[21:18:00] <pochu> but things have changed so much that we should test this again
[21:18:40] <delYsid> I wonder if we can somehow create an automated test that would ensure it keeps working.
[21:18:45] <mbiebl_> delYsid: hm, works here too :-/
[21:19:06] <delYsid> mbiebl_: The shortcut, or the whole login process?
[21:21:45] <mbiebl_> so, what I did was the following
[21:21:59] <mbiebl_> open gnome-control-center, enable screen reader for my user
[21:22:01] <mbiebl_> logged out
[21:22:12] <mbiebl_> hit alt+super+s
[21:22:15] <mbiebl_> rebooted
[21:22:35] <mbiebl_> gdm starts up with screenreader enabled, reads my name when selecting it etc
[21:22:38] <mbiebl_> logged in
[21:23:02] <mbiebl_> screen reader is active and working
[21:23:11] <mbiebl_> tested with the menu in gnome-terminal
[21:23:21] <pochu> I'm not sure you were supposed to start the screen reader in your session
[21:23:47] <mbiebl_> ah, ok, so I could have skipped the first step
[21:23:56] <pochu> so starting it in gdm3 and logging in should enable a11y in the session as well
[21:24:01] <pochu> delYsid: is that right?
[21:24:03] <delYsid> AIUI you should, because you might have users on a system who dont need it, but those who need it would still need gdm talking.
[21:24:22] <pochu> anyway it's good that it works in that case
[21:24:39] <delYsid> mbiebl_: Thanks.  And I assume you are using PA (with mostly defaults?) and you have a system with *one* soundcard?
[21:24:57] <mbiebl_> never tweaked the PA settings
[21:25:05] <mbiebl_> one soundcard, yes
[21:25:31] <mbiebl_> 00:1b.0 Audio device: Intel Corporation 6 Series/C200 Series Chipset Family High Definition Audio Controller (rev 04)
[21:26:15] <delYsid> OK, its good to hear it works for that case.  Thanks again.  So it is either a new thing about me having two cards (which previously worked) or something totally else.
[21:29:56] <delYsid> pochu: This is actually a hard question.  You are right in that, if I have requested accessibility once manually during login, I really want accessibility once I have logged in.  However, accessibility enabled still needs to be a separate setting for gdm and every user, since some users on a multiuser system might not want/need accessibility, but those users who need it will still want the login process to talk to them.  And on a single
[21:29:56] <delYsid> user system, you always want it to talk by default, without having to invoke it manually.
[21:31:02] <mbiebl_> delYsid: so I can neither reproduce the screen-locking issue nor the screen-reader issue :-/
[21:31:07] <mbiebl_> both dtrt afaics
[21:31:38] <mbiebl_> at least the screenlocking shouldn't be hardware dependent
[21:32:19] <mbiebl_> I do use a docking station
[21:32:26] <mbiebl_> I could try with the laptop undocket
[21:32:41] <mbiebl_> but I doubt it would make a difference
[21:33:58] <bjsnider> the locking issue happens for me in stretch
[21:34:14] <bjsnider> it does not behave the way halfline expects
[21:35:09] <mfv> delYsid: ^ then you were right ;)
[21:36:17] <mbiebl_> are you sure it's not the screensaver kicking in?
[21:36:38] <mbiebl_> bjsnider: what exactly did you do, to reproduce the issue?
[21:43:44] <bjsnider> mbiebl_: ctrl+alt+f1, logged into the vt, then ctrl+alt+f7, and i was taken to the login page as if i had logged out
[21:44:05] <bjsnider> or the lock screen if you prefer
[21:44:08] <mbiebl_> bjsnider: as said, on f7 I do have gdm running
[21:44:15] <mbiebl_> my X session is on tty2
[21:44:40] <bjsnider> how would you recommend i try it?
[21:44:49] <mbiebl_> can you pastebin the output of loginctl when you are logged in on the console
[21:45:43] <mbiebl_> in my case that would be loginctl show-session 1 2 c1
[21:45:44] <bjsnider> so if you switched back with f2 instead of f7 it would work like halfline says?
[21:46:27] <mbiebl_> my X session runs on tty2 and if I switch back to that it's not locked
[21:46:55] <mbiebl_> If I switch to gdm on tty7, it's the usual login manager
[21:47:04] <mbiebl_> which almost looks like a locked screen
[21:47:20] <mbiebl_> that's why I'm asking if you are not confusing the two
[21:47:39] <mbiebl_> pasting the loginctl output should help figure that out
[21:52:17] <bjsnider> mbiebl_: yeah mine is working exactly like yours.
[21:56:30] <mbiebl_> so, you actually don't get a screenlock like delYsid then?
[21:56:44] <mbiebl_> when you switch X → console → X
[21:58:44] <bjsnider> if i use f2, which has x11 on it, then it's just back to the desktop
[21:58:58] <bjsnider> f7 has the gdm-login on it
[22:00:10] <fatal> we probably should have added a debian/NEWS entry in gdm3 about the changed behaviour with logind-enabled-X....
[22:00:25] <bigon> it's not locking the screen here
[22:02:32] <pochu> bigon: I think it's not locking the screen for anyone. it was just some confusion
[22:02:56] <pochu> going back to tty7 where gdm is instead of tty2 where gnome-shell is
[22:03:02] <bigon> I just read the backlog in diagonal
[22:03:18] <bigon> I'm still wondering if we shouldn't switch to vt1 for gdm
[22:03:30] <bigon> but I don't want to take that decision myself :p
[22:03:43] <pochu> coward! :p
[22:04:06] <bjsnider> and put x11 on f7 to mimic the old behaviour
[22:05:47] <bigon> I was thinking about asking all DM to change to vt1
[22:06:15] <bigon> having differences might lead to confusion I guess
[22:12:43] <mbiebl_> pochu: yeah, I guess it's just musle memory kicking in here
[22:13:25] <mbiebl_> If I'm not mistaken, if you switch to gdm on tty7 and *login*, you will be simply redirected to your running session
[22:13:42] <mbiebl_> so it very much behaves like, oh no, the screen was locked
[22:13:42] <mfv> mbiebl_: yes.
[22:14:16] <mbiebl_> bigon: starting gdm on tty1 would indeed make it obvious that this behaviour was changed
[22:14:37] <mbiebl_> but I get your point about wanting some consistency here
[22:15:08] <mbiebl_> getting at least the sddm/lightdm maintainers on board beforehand would probably make sense
[22:15:19] <mbiebl_> and the gdm3 ones :-)
[22:16:08] <bigon> should we post something on d-devel?
[22:16:38] <mbiebl_> bigon: what do you expect to get from there, aside from a flame?
[22:17:01] <mfv> eheheh...
[22:17:55] <bigon> I was thinking the same
[22:18:19] <mbiebl_> delYsid: would be great if you can confirm that it was just a confusion because of the changed behaviour on your side as well
[22:18:26] <mbiebl_> it most likely is, just want to be sure
[22:18:43] <delYsid> mbiebl_: I will have to check on which tty my X session actually runs tomorrow (system not here).  It definitely violates the principle of least surprise, because previously, my X session was definitely always on tty7.  Actually, I'd want it to stay there, so if I can confirm that behaviour, my next question is, how do I turn that off again?
[22:19:08] <bjsnider> i'll bet there's a logind command
[22:19:36] <mbiebl_> I think it takes the first free one aside from tty1
[22:19:52] <mbiebl_> not sure if that is configurable
[22:20:11] <delYsid> oh, so I'd need to login on all 6 ttys to keep them console?
[22:20:28] <jcristau> it's going to be variable anyway, since there's not just one X server, there's one per session, each on its vt
[22:20:37] <jcristau> (meaning at least one for gdm and one for you)
[22:21:05] <delYsid> wow, this is real news to me, feels like I have been sleeping.
[22:21:07] <mbiebl_> delYsid: I guess it would pick tty8 in that case
[22:21:14] <delYsid> That'd explain a lot.
[22:21:19] <bjsnider> i wonder how it's deciding to put gdm-login on 7
[22:21:29] <mbiebl_> that's hard-coded atm
[22:21:30] <jcristau> well it's new in 3.18 aiui
[22:22:07] <mbiebl_> hard-coded in gdm3, I mean
[22:22:21] <mbiebl_> --with-initial-vt=7 → debian/rules
[22:22:26] <delYsid> thanks guys, this helps a lot, and is very likely the explanation for at least the "lock" screen.  I guess this will confuse a lot of people, not just blind users :-)
[22:22:42] <jcristau> yes, quite likely
[22:22:55] <bjsnider> well, i didn't know about the change
[22:23:03] <mbiebl_> sure, I ran into this once or twice myself at the beginning
[22:23:18] <mbiebl_> a NEWS entry would certainly not be the worst idea
[22:23:29] <delYsid> mbiebl_: agreed.
[22:23:38] <mbiebl_> maybe even add it to the stretch release notes
[22:25:00] <mbiebl_> bigon: do you want to poke the *dm maintainers about switching that to vt1 ?
[22:25:37] <mbiebl_> assuming we actually want that
[22:27:49] <bjsnider> hm, halfline's last message about this is "but yea you should be able to just hit ctrl-alt-f1"
[22:28:07] <bjsnider> maybe fedora is using f1 for x11
[22:28:23] <mbiebl_> yes fedora starts gdm on tty1
[22:28:25] <bjsnider> meaning it's somehow configurable
[22:28:39] <bjsnider> well, he means to avoid the login screen
[22:29:01] <mbiebl_> it is, see my reply a few minutes ago about debian/rules
[22:30:00] <bigon> bjsnider: actually every distro use vt1 except debian (and derivate)
[22:30:06] <mbiebl_> delYsid wanted his *user* X session always on tty7, and afaik this is not possible with logind in the mix
[22:30:33] <mbiebl_> since it will just always pick the first free tty, starting from tty2
[22:38:04] <bjsnider> if they code gdm-login into tty1, then x11 user will be on tty2 like in debian
[22:44:01] <bjsnider> yes, halfline just confirmed that it's also f2 in fedora, so i gues all other distros as well
[22:44:26] <bjsnider> and they've got gdm-login on tty1
[22:45:47] <pochu> the point is that in Debian the user session used to be in tty7
[22:46:03] <pochu> now it's not, and that confuses people
[23:11:42] <mfv> ok, confirmed even on my side: X session on tty2 and gdm session on tty7
[23:11:52] <mfv> just fyi  ;)
[23:14:56] <fatal> maybe we should have switched gdm to tty1 while at it, just to make everyone super-confused and force them to realize that something has actually changed. :)
[23:17:20] <fatal> (ofcourse, adding a debian/NEWS entry would have been a great start.)
[23:17:56] <jcristau> you can add debian/NEWS after the fact, like we did for X :)
[23:18:18] <jcristau> "oh, btw, here's what we broke 3 weeks ago: [...]"
[23:18:56] <mbiebl_> fatal: was raised from bigon earlier
[23:19:12] <mbiebl_> we should probably get (at least the major) DMs on board
[23:19:19] <mbiebl_> to not make this even more confusing
[23:19:31] <mbiebl_> by having gdm on tty1, lightdm on tty7 etc
[23:21:02] <mbiebl_> I don't have a particularly strong feeling on this
[23:21:26] <mbiebl_> I vaguely remember that having the dm on tty1 would make the transition from plymouth to DM more seamless
[23:21:34] <mbiebl_> not sure, if that is still true today
[23:33:33] <bjsnider> halfline says there's an open bug about gdm-login running all the time -- angry users don't like it using resources
[23:37:58] <jcristau> the thing with idle processes.  they don't use any resources.
[23:38:40] <fatal> mbiebl_: yeah, it was just in hindsight.... we discussed gdm on vt1 before going to unstable but decided to postpone that discussion..... if I had a time-machine I'd go back and change that now.